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Author Topic: Standard vs supercoat  (Read 6989 times)

Offline Brittan

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Standard vs supercoat
« on: March 30, 2011, 12:07:19 AM »
We are looking at getting a mini schnauzer.

We were recommended a great breeder that only does a few litters a year and she has 4 children herself so the dogs are used to kids (we have 3 kids).

She used to have both standard and supercoat but now she only has supercoated mini's.

My kids are really excited about the supercoat becuase they are really soft.  Personally I like the look of the standard better.

Does anyone have a lot of experience with supercoated schnauzers?

Do they need to be groomed more?
Does their hair grow faster?
Is it a lot more work?
Are they a lot softer?
Any other thoughts would be much appreciated. 
Thanks!

Offline Lara

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2011, 09:48:41 AM »
Honestly I didn't realize there was such thing as a supercoat, I did a quick google search to see what it was all about.

Here's my thoughts..  If you like the look of a schnauzer cut then I wouldn't think the coat would matter much, you may just have more frequent trips to the groomers.  When the hair is cut short it's really soft, you may want to also check with a groomer to see if there is a price difference for a standard vs supercoat.

The one thing I'd be concerned with is the tangles and matts.  Schnauzers need to be brushed often and it doesn't take long for matts and tangles to form, so if you are planning on keeping the hair longer and it's a supercoat I'd think you'd need to be very diligent with daily brushing.

Either way, you can't go wrong with a Schnauzer.  They are the BEST, and such wonderful family dogs!!
Jack 7yo Rescued S&P Mini

Offline Kelly B

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 10:00:29 AM »
I'm not entirely sure what a super coat is. Is it just a very soft, fluffy coat vs. a more traditional wire coat? Jedi's breeder has both types of coats in almost every litter. Jedi has a soft coat. He has a lot of soft hair which make really nice furnishings. If this is what you mean by super coat, then I personally love it. But there's a price to pay for beauty -LOL- he has to be brushed everyday and even as a puppy, he already gets little mats on his tummy. If I didn't brush him out everyday, I'd be afraid to see how matted it would get. But because his breeder is used to these soft coat puppies, she starts brushing them from a very young age so he's completely comfortable with it.

That being said, he is sooooo soft! He like a little teddy bear! He had the softest coat of his litter, and that litter all ended up with soft coats, so he has very fluffy furnishings. But I do think that they need a really good schnauzer cut so their doesn't look like it's sticking out the sides. Jedi's breeder is also a groomer and she makes sure she cuts nice and low on their sides so their fluffy furnishings don't look weird. If cut properly, I think they're gorgeous. If cut incorrectly, I think they don't even look like a schnauzer anymore... So make sure you have a good groomer!


Here's some pics of Jedi right after he was groomed.




Jedi: S&P Parti mini born: 1/23/11  1.5yrs, 16.5lbs
Mercy (Mercedes): B&S mini born: 05/26/12 8.4 lbs
Scrapbooks:  Jedi\'s Picture Album and Comparison Pics
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Offline Brittan

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2011, 11:19:32 AM »
Thanks for the reply's.

Kelly - Jedi is adorable.  It definitly looks like you have a supercoat.  Do you have any pics of before he gets groomed?  (if yes can you let me know how long it had been since he was last groomed?). 

Lara- How often do you have to brush your schnauzer?

Offline Traci

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2011, 12:40:57 PM »
There is nothing in the breed standard about schnauzers being "supercoated" this is something that breeders who do not follow the breed standard have tried to breed in to make their own designer dog same as with the toy size, parti color, blue Merle color etc....

My thought.... Although the designer schnauzer can be cute and make a nice pet what are the long term effects on the breed?????? If breeders do not stick to the breed standard and preserve the breed, where will the miniature schnauzer breed be in 50 years????? Will the mini schnauzer that truly fits the breed standard be extinct??? Do you really want to support breeders who don't breed to the standard? To read the breed standard and see illustrations go to www.amsc.us

Traci
Ludwigs Mini Schnauzers  www.LudwigMS.com

Offline Gerri

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2011, 12:55:27 PM »


I never heard the term supercoat in the UK.

Rufus has a very harsh European coat that still needs brushing every day otherwise he gets matted especially in his groin area and under his elbows
Rufus - Giant born Feb 2010 (100lbs! - hopefully fully grown)
Blaze - Black Mini born Feb 2012
Albi - Black Mini born Sep 2010. Crossed over Rainbow Bridge April 2012 :(


Offline Kelly B

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 01:15:16 PM »
Hi Brittan,
yeah, after I did a little research online a supercoat is what Jedi's breeder (Catherine) just calls a soft coat.

He's only 9 weeks old now and he's just had one full grooming so far. I plan on taking him back to Catherine for his grooming(s) so she can see him grow up. She said he won't need another cut for 2-3 months. She never mentioned that soft coats need to be groomed more often. It's been 12 days now since his hair cut and he still looks freshly trimmed. So maybe it doesn't grow too much faster. If you're concerned about the extra expense of more haircuts, you could have your groomer take him/her a little extra short each time, which might buy you another week or so and make it more affordable. Plus, I also think that a little shaggy is quite cute and I'm sure that during the winter months we'll let Jedi go probably the full 3 months to keep him warm. And if you're worried about matting, there are products out there that you put into the dog's hair to de-mat (if that's a word) it. For Jedi, so far, as long as I brush everyday with his slicker brush, all the little belly mats come out very easily. He hasn't had mats anywhere else yet.

I also think that the standard wire coat is very nice too. My inlaw's mini is a wire coat. They still need to brush him every evening because he gets a lot of matting in his beard and underarm area especially. But by doing it once a day, he's quite easy to maintain.

If you ask me, all schnauzers are GORGEOUS!!! There's nothing quite like a schnauzer!  :smiley:

 - Kelly


PS - my view on the breed standard - although I agree it's important to keep the standards, Jedi's breeder usually aims for breed standards (occassionally she breeds for liver pups, I think once a year because people ask for them all the time) and yet she gets soft coats and wire coats from the same litters. She also gets standard colors and partis from the same litter. Sometimes this just happens. An example was Jedi's litter - everyone on the waitlist for this particular litter wanted s&p or solid black. The chance of Jedi's mom having a parti was a very small percentile, yet all 6 puppies came out parti pups! The next litter, different momma dog, Catherine also tried for standards colors because some people from our wait list were still waiting. In that litter she got 2 b&s, 2 black, and 2 black partis. Some were wire coat and some were soft coat. Jedi is a soft coat parti - we were on the waitlist for a black pup. But because his mother and father's personality were what we loved, we chose him based on that and don't regret it one bit.  :grin:
Jedi: S&P Parti mini born: 1/23/11  1.5yrs, 16.5lbs
Mercy (Mercedes): B&S mini born: 05/26/12 8.4 lbs
Scrapbooks:  Jedi\'s Picture Album and Comparison Pics
My Facebook Food Blog

Offline Peter Christensen

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2011, 02:03:01 PM »
I am relatively new to being a dog person, yet in my years as a member of a Schnauzer club (treasurer and board member, actually) and my years running this forum I have never heard the term supercoat before.

This is likely an indication of my ignorance and nothing more. Still, before buying such a dog, I would certainly want a thorough explanation from the breeder as to how this condition came about. Were other breeds bred into the equation? And how long ago?

When I Googled the term I found an explanation on a Toy Schnauzer site. This is all getting further and further away from the standard for Minis. It also had pictures showing a very different coat, not just a softer one as Kelly indicates.

That's not necessarily a bad thing! All new breeds and variations have to begin somewhere. But it's unusual, and I think it's important to fully understand it.

That said, I will address dogs that don't fit the AMSC standard:

When you are around breeders that have the AMSC standard as their goal, they can be a little bit "stuffy" about it. Though I've never heard them say anything negative about non-standard dogs, and quite the opposite. Some of them have marveled at how cute Partis and Whites are. It's just not their thing.

Their "thing" is concentrating on breeding dogs that meet the AMSC standards as closely as possible, and have as perfect health as they can genetically breed. When a breeder is emphasizing a change in appearance, you have to be sure that they are not de-emphasizing health.

I happen to love Partis and Whites, but I have to agree with Traci's point... if there are more and more and more variations of what a Schnauzer looks like, at some point Schnauzers won't look like... well, Schnauzers!

Then again, I own two color variations myself. So who am I to say there shouldn't be more!

Peter

P.S.

Speaking of distinguishing points...

Kelly, I just noticed that Jedi's belly cut is a little bit like a Scotty's, though he has the long legs of a Schnauzer:

My Black Miniature Schnauzer Is NOT a Scotty!



Course either way he's cute as a button!
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.0 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Traci

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2011, 02:42:09 PM »
I guess the newest designer schnauzer is the "Merle" Here is a link to the lady who created this Merle or as she calls them Confetti schnauzer. Some pics ive seen on websites of the Merle had 1 or 2 blue eyes  :shocked:
http://www.minidesignerpuppys.com/Merle%20Schnauzers.html

Traci :daisey:
Ludwigs Mini Schnauzers  www.LudwigMS.com

Offline Peter Christensen

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2011, 03:07:13 PM »
I happen to love Partis and Whites, but I have to agree with Traci's point... if there are more and more and more variations of what a Schnauzer looks like, at some point Schnauzers won't look like... well, Schnauzers!

Wow Traci, that sure made my point!

Of course the cuts had a lot to do with it, but they sure don't look much like Schnauzers!

Peter
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.0 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Elizabeth

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2011, 05:14:45 PM »
I guess the newest designer schnauzer is the "Merle" Here is a link to the lady who created this Merle or as she calls them Confetti schnauzer. Some pics ive seen on websites of the Merle had 1 or 2 blue eyes  :shocked:
http://www.minidesignerpuppys.com/Merle%20Schnauzers.html

Traci :daisey:


The other day I saw some mini schnauzer merle puppies advertised -- some had blue eyes -- I think there may have been some odd-eye as well.  I thought, huh?  I've never seen that before.

I thought that in order to produce a special color like white, parti, or merle, that somewhere in the breeding line a different dog breed had been introduced to add the gene variation (in other words, merle would not be a spontaneous mutation occuring in a schnauzer, for instance).  I don't pretend to know a lot about the alleles and genotypes of schnauzers, but a schnauzer breeder told me that white schnauzers, for instance, are not a genetic variation of the breed standard, but that they probably had a Westie in the breeding lineage somewhere.  Is that true?
Lucy, S&P puppy!  D.O.B. 1-1-11

Offline Kelly B

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2011, 06:14:47 PM »
Traci, there were pictures similar to these that I found when I was researching what an adult parti mini schnauzer would look like. It scared me soooooo much that I almost didn't get Jedi. I really wanted one of Callie's (the momma s&p mini) puppies because I love her and the dog she was bred to and Callie's parents and grandparents lived (or are living) long healthy lives. But when I saw pictures like these I just about fainted. Callie only had parti pups and I am not a fan of the "ticking" that shows up on the whites of them. I finally had to put all those online pictures out of my mind and just go with my gut. I felt like the firstborn from her litter was meant for us. Now that we have Jedi, his "ticking" is nothing like what I was seeing online (like the confetti ones you linked to). There must be some people out there who love that look, but it sure scared me. I wanted a schnauzer and I didn't find that those dogs much resembled a schnauzer anymore.

So as far as the breed standards go, I'm quite happy if a parti can never be shown. I get that they want to keep the breed authentic. And I think as long as they keep the show requirements strict, then there will always be people who want a show dog, so I think there will always be "authentic" (for lack of a better word) schnauzers out there. So I'm quite fine if people want to breed whatever colors and patterns they like so long as they are being sold as "pet quality" and not tricking people into thinking they're getting a pedigree. Actually, my dream "job" would be to breed pedigree b&s minis! Maybe one day... for now, it's just a dream.
Jedi: S&P Parti mini born: 1/23/11  1.5yrs, 16.5lbs
Mercy (Mercedes): B&S mini born: 05/26/12 8.4 lbs
Scrapbooks:  Jedi\'s Picture Album and Comparison Pics
My Facebook Food Blog

Offline Janice

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2011, 06:29:03 PM »
I thought that in order to produce a special color like white, parti, or merle, that somewhere in the breeding line a different dog breed had been introduced to add the gene variation (in other words, merle would not be a spontaneous mutation occuring in a schnauzer, for instance).

I clicked on that link to have a look.  She has an explanation for 'creating' the Confetti Schnauzer.
She bred a mini aussie into the line.  She says it was only bred once, then eventually the mini Aussie is 'bred out' as you continue to mix those puppies with full Schnauzers - and you are left with the occasional interesting looking dog!  

As far as the white Schnauzer is concerned, there were originally white Schnauzers - but they didn't want that to be part of the 'breed standard', so if a white Schnauzer was born - it was not bred, in an effort to remove it completely.  Obviously that can't always happen, and a white one will pop up occasionally.  The problem is the white became 'rare' and hence - desirable.  So in order to get more a lot of inbreeding has to happen!  
To Peter's point - they are now breeding for looks with less concern over health, as opposed to someone looking at breed standard - which has an equal focus on health and looks.  

I think...

I'm no expert...

That being said - I think there are great breeders out there who take all the care in the world - maybe even Confetti Schnauzer lady!  And I think there are puppy mills out there that are selling 'pure bred' dogs without a care.  I think meeting the breeder, and meeting the parent dogs is the only way to determine who is doing the right thing - and who is in it for the money!

Winston, Miniature Schnauzer, Black - 2years

Offline Peter Christensen

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2011, 06:33:55 PM »
Elizabeth,

The site Traci linked us to did have the term Designer on it, though I'm not sure that related to all their dogs. Anyway, I always thought that term implied a cross between two breeds (at least somewhere in the line).


Brittan,

The moment you talked about looking for a Schnauzer I should have referred you to our Index and:

How to Identify a Responsible Breeder

When you go to look at puppies, you should find a scene very much like this:



That's forum member Roz' home with my family visiting. The puppies should be raised IN the home and you should be allowed to see them in this environment and meet the parents. (The puppy's, not the breeder's. LOL)

Peter
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.0 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Alaina

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Re: Standard vs supercoat
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2011, 07:07:52 PM »
I am not familiar with the term, but i can tell you that a super soft, fine haired schnauzer is much more work than a courser haired  :schnauzer:.   Livie,my mini black  :schnauzer: is super soft.  Before I bathe her I comb her thoroughly to ensure there are no mats.  After I bathe her she is covered with small fine mats on her furnishings and I have to use a really good detangler in order to get them out without causing pain.  My previous mini had a coat that I was more familiar with and she was very easy to maintain with regular brushing.
Alaina and the Girls:
Olivia - Black mini, 13 yrs., 11/30/2001, 15 lb
Gracie - S&P standard, 7 yrs., 09/03/2007, 32 lb
In memory:  Tilly - 1994 to 2007