Author Topic: Ear Gluing  (Read 54261 times)

Offline Sarah

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Ear Gluing
« on: June 23, 2010, 01:37:04 AM »
Note from Peter:

I haven't participated in this topic much lately because I decided that I didn't do well with it so I don't have much to offer! That said, here's what I would do next time:

Glue them right after they are groomed. Tear Mender works great. (Tear Mender has a wide variety of products, but when I phoned their 800 number they said the contents were all identical!)

By the time it's time again, the hair will have grown out so that the glue is hanging between the hair -- grown out from both sides -- and can easily be cut out.

After each grooming I would go a couple weeks to see if I needed to glue them again. I think this ruined the process, and one of Pukalu's ears never did equal the other after month and months of doing this. (It does fall down properly, though, so I succeeded with that. It had actually been falling backward and turning inside out! He was bred by a breeder that always cropped their ears.)

But don't let the ear(s) go weeks for observation. Keep them glued.

I also didn't glue the crease, and I now think that's necessary. I don't think the more gentle bend down created by just gluing the tips is enough.

Peter


Now here's Sarah's post:

I have a somewhat random question.  Did anyone else on the board glue their Schnauzer's ears in position when they were babies?  Bisi had one ear that was in danger of becoming a 'bat ear' (sticking all the way or partially up) so our breeder glued down the tips of his ears to his head so that the cartilage would sit correctly as he grew.  There is a specific glue that groomers and breeders use to do this, though you can also use eyelash glue, which is what we did when he needed 'touch-ups'.  He had them glued for several months.  You couldn't tell at all, he just looked like he had perfectly set ears from the get-go, since they were glued into perfect position.  It didn't bother or hurt him at all, and he now has perfectly set ears.  I think that bat ears are also adorable, but I prefer the 'set' look.  Many breeds to this to get a correct ear set (shelties, english bulldogs, collies, etc.) and I am just wondering how common it is in Schnauzers outside of taping due to cropping and such.
Bismarck aka "Bisi" - S&P Mini, Age 9
Baxa - Spanish Water Dog, Age 9
Ophelia - Spanish Water Dog, Age 8 Weeks and so help me I hope we both make it through her puppyhood!
Scrapbook:  Introducing Bismarck

Offline Peter

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 12:29:44 PM »
This is a very important topic for me as I just love minis with nice, floppy ears. Yet I have been shy to post about it in the forum since many of dogs pictured here do have ears that stick up to some degree, and I didn't want anyone to think I was being critical. I'm sure to someone who has gotten to know minis with ears like that, it looks most attractive!

I never gave it much thought at the outset. When Lane and I picked out Scout, as far as I remember they all had nice floppy ears. Same when I got Muka.

So I was a little concerned when I was getting Pukalu sight-unseen, though I had discussions with the breeder about it and felt confident I'd be happy.

All breeds of dogs were created by man, and man chose the priorities. (This is why you need to buy from a responsible breeder that will care as much about health and temperament as appearance!) And since Schnauzer ears have traditionally been cropped, ears have not been a priority. In fact, stiff, upright ears would be the best choice for ears that were going to be cropped. So if they were made a priority, it was not to be nice and floppy!

Pukalu came to me with his ears glued down, and I'm not sure if it was because they were starting to go up, or just as a precaution because I was so concerned about it. Also, Scout and Muka have very different ears. Scout and Pukalu's are smaller and fall to the front, while Muka's are much bigger and fall more to the side. So mini ears vary greatly, just as they do with us.

Muka is so rough with Pukalu that I was worried the ears might be ripped undone, and that's just what happened to one. So I fussed for four days till it was time for his puppy checkup at which time we would decide what to do about it.

I must admit that I was kinda freaking out that having only one glued down might cause them to come out different in the end! Since the one that came loose was falling down nicely, we decided just to pull the other one open.

At first the newly opened one had more of a crease, but they have pretty much evened out. I was told from the start that you could help shape them by gently holding the crease in them and pressing lightly. I do this a few times a day and Pukalu just holds very still and doesn't seem to mind.

Being the perfectionist I am, I'm always looking to see if the ears match each other. Which is just about impossible as the slightest look in one direction or the other sets them different. For sure they are both falling down nicely.

(I used to look straight into the mirror so that I could cut my sideburns to the same length. Thing is, one ear is higher than the other. So using that method, one sideburn would be longer than the other! We really aren't that symmetrical if you look closely.)

As I understand it, anytime during the puppy's growth period the ears can start to stand up and out. And if this happens, I will need to re-glue them. I have two breeder friends to help me, but I would probably drive to Salem to have Pukalu's breeder do it because she's done it for so many years and is highly skilled at it.

It takes a little skill, because you can't glue them then adjust them to perfection. It's super glue, and you just get one shot! Well, I'd always heard the term super glue. Here's what the instructions that came with Pukalu say:

Dogs who do not have ears cropped may not have ears which will stay down and you will have "bat ears" or even one up and one down. At the age of 12 weeks the ears should be hugging the puppy's cheeks if you want uncropped ears.

If there is ANY lift at this age the ears are going to go up. When the ears are uncropped they are supposed to be small and v-shaped, folding close to the skull. Some people glue the ears in position to try to train them to flop properly. If you do, use the right glue, Tear Mender.


First medical grade felt was glued on the underside of Pukalu's ears so that its weight would help hold them down even if they came unglued. It's still working it's way off. If you follow the Tear Mender link, it says that you can also apply the glue alone for this purpose... not to glue them down, but simply to weigh them down.

Peter
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Michelle

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 01:36:56 PM »
So are you saying that by 12 weeks they will stay the way they are? or that you need to be vigilant to make sure they remain folded tightly at 12 weeks?
I also happen to be an ear connoisseur and specifically picked Rupert because of his nicely and tightly folded ears (well that wasn't the only reason, but you know..).
I prefer floppy ears, and will be making a habit of lightly pinching/folding them to make sure they stay that way!!!
Rupert, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, born April 4, 2010
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Offline KristenH

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 02:01:40 PM »
I was told you can tape their ears, but I forgot what kind of tape they said to use...sorry, I'm not much help.  I've heard of gluing but not anything specific.

Matthias will cock one ear or the other (or sometimes both!) up while playing, but they don't stick out or do anything requiring action on our part to keep them looking right.  They're nice and floppy (but not "houndy", if that makes sense), and so much fun to play with!

Edit: This is an article I found that kind of explains what I was told about taping ears.
http://www.association.standard-schnauzer.com/NaturalEarsByMarionKidd.pdf
Matthias Varrick, P&S Standard, 02/16/10

Offline Peter

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 02:20:10 PM »
So are you saying that by 12 weeks they will stay the way they are? or that you need to be vigilant to make sure they remain folded tightly at 12 weeks?

I think she is saying that you really can't make any judgement before 12 weeks. Then at 12 weeks, you'll get a good indication. However, at any time during the puppy's rapid growth the ears can start to turn up and if so, you might need to glue them down.

Muka's were so big and floppy I just couldn't see this happening. But Pukalu's are smaller and I could see them turning up, or not.

I edited my comments on the felt and glue, last para above.

Peter
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Gerri

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 02:24:14 PM »


I always thought ears set during the teething stage. When pups are teething their cartilege softens, so if action is required it's needs to continue until after teething.

Of course I may be talking out of my behind and quite happy to be corrected!!
Rufus - Giant born Feb 2010 (100lbs! - hopefully fully grown)
Blaze - Black Mini born Feb 2012
Albi - Black Mini born Sep 2010. Crossed over Rainbow Bridge April 2012 :(


Offline Peter

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 02:29:31 PM »
While you're on the subject... when is the teething stage?

Also, that would be great if the cartlidge softened. It would just help the ears fall down I'd suppose. Then I guess you'd have to watch carefully when it toughened up again.

Peter
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Sarah

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 04:12:51 PM »
I am SO relieved that I am not the only ear gluer!  Our breeder glued Bisi's ears using whatever 'ear gluer downer' product breeders and groomers used, but she showed me the ingredients and it is literally exactly the same as fake eyelash glue!  It's just marketed differently.  I felt comfortable doing touch-ups and re-glues on Bisi using the eyelash glue since I figured that if I can use it on my own eyes it would not hurt Bisi.  It was pretty funny when they were first glued down though...she glued them down, then wrapped a super thin piece of duct tape around his head to help the glue set and dry.  He looked like one of the ghosts from A Christmas Carol, with the thing around his head, it was hilarious!  I took it off within an hour, and he was good to go. 

I definitely erred on the side of caution with Bisi's ears, and kept them glued for a couple of months just to make sure.  If you wait too long, and they start sticking up, it's too late and ya can't go back and fix them.  I heard the same thing about the 'teething stage' also being the cutoff point for ear gluing.  In my experience, teething age depends quite a bit on the puppy.  Bisi lost his teeth relatively late, while I have 12 and 13 week old puppies in my puppy classes who occasionally lose teeth (sometimes while playing in class...and I swear dogs ONLY lose teeth while playing with fluffy, white dogs, so it looks like a bloodbath!). 
Bismarck aka "Bisi" - S&P Mini, Age 9
Baxa - Spanish Water Dog, Age 9
Ophelia - Spanish Water Dog, Age 8 Weeks and so help me I hope we both make it through her puppyhood!
Scrapbook:  Introducing Bismarck

Offline Peter

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 05:06:18 PM »
I forgot I have a copy of the AKC New Puppy Handbook which has a development timeline.

At 12 weeks they start to shed baby teeth, and bladder control starts to improve. (Pukalu's 12 weeks old tomorrow!)

At 16 weeks teeth are still falling out, and you should check to be sure none are stuck and not falling out (beside the new tooth, I presume). When Muka was fixed at 6 months they were supposed to check for such teeth. So I was pretty upset when he just got his teeth cleaned two years later and they found two impacted baby teeth! Glad I changed vets.

The timeline didn't say when the baby teeth are normally all out.

Peter
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Christy

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2010, 07:18:12 PM »
its funny,

I was just browsing petfinder and saw a schnauzer with bat ears and went OH  MY! I never realized how huge their ears are, sassys were cropped long before I brought her home.

I never realized they glued them down either, seems like it'd be more useful to have ears that size standing up.

neat topic.

Offline Peter

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2010, 07:25:04 PM »
Standing up is fine. But then there is the issue of them both standing up the same way.

Peter
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Christy

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2010, 07:38:34 PM »
lol

I understand peter, I am OCD about things being even except when it comes to my pets :p they're all rejects Sassy crop is even slightly un even.

Madison my cat's ears would tweak you! he had one ear cut off when he was 5 weeks old by a fan in a car engine (the fateful ride that brought him to me)

Offline Peter

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2010, 10:55:26 PM »
I think I mentioned above that I wouldn't give this topic any thought at all if I were adopting an older dog. But when you have some say in the dog's future...

Peter
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

BennyBear

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2010, 04:22:53 AM »
I love floppy ears and would never have my dogs ears cropped or tail docked.    But we got ben after other owners, who wanted all that done.     I'm not saying to do either or- you do what you want, but i personally, hate cropping and docking.

Offline Angela

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Re: Ear Gluing
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2010, 08:59:24 AM »
Mhm.. I wonder if Lotte's ears are trying to go up. They're the cute floppy "Tramp" ears, though I swear her right ear is starting to lay differently than the other one (more off to the side). It's subtle, but noticeable. I don't particularly care though.

I would prefer if Lotte actually had her tail. It looks so much smaller than other docked tails I've seen... I think it may have been cut too short.
Lotte, 2 year old s&p mini DOB: 2/4/2010
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"A puppy is but a dog, plus high spirits, and minus common sense."
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