Author Topic: Trying to train new skills  (Read 487 times)

Offline Rock

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Trying to train new skills
« on: May 16, 2017, 08:16:24 PM »
Shadow has been very good with training.  Especially with feeding time behavior.   He knows the feeding routine and will calmly sit with intense attention to my every move.  He remains sitting until I place the bowl on the floor and say "ok".  He does the same for treats, he knows, he sits and doesn't move.  Even during off leash call back, he arrives then sits waiting for the reward.

Now, I'm trying to teach him a couple of simple skills with a food treat in my hand.  He sits and waits and watches.  That's all.  I am not able to get him to attempt the skill or complete the task.  He remains sitting, waiting and watching for the food nugget.  I must admit, he has learned this very well and doesn't even require a verbal command anymore.  When the food or treats come out, he plops his biscuits on the floor waiting and watching.

Additional training is stymied at this point.   

Stubborn schnauzer with a dumb owner..................

Any hints???
Shadow, male Salt & Pepper (mostly Pepper) Miniature Schnauzer, born May 3, 2016

Offline Peter Christensen

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2017, 11:29:29 AM »
Dumb owner.

:devil:

Have you seen my video? And Muka's the first dog I've ever owned.

What trick are you wanting to teach and how are you trying to teach it?
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.0 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Liz W

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2017, 11:45:31 AM »
One exercise we had to do at puppy class was to hold a treat in an extended arm and wait.  Only give the treat when the dog looks at your face and away from the arm.  It's a good one to get the dog to look at you, rather than at the treat. 

Once he looks at you, then you can move on to other training or tricks, as his attention moves to you, rather than the treat.  It was hard for Buster to get this, but it did work.  Now, whenever I say 'good wait/sit/come etc' he looks straight up at my face - yes, expecting a treat, but focussed on me. 

I've never moved into training for tricks, I prefer puzzles for Buster!
Buster, male P&S Miniature Schnauzer, born January 17, 2014
Buster's Scrapbook

Offline Peter Christensen

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2017, 12:36:55 PM »
Liz,

I did that too. For us the command is Ready. It means to sit and look up into my eyes.

What's funny is I learned about it in puppy school, as a method of getting my dog's attention when it's greatly distracted... say looking at another dog outside.

It rarely works then! But other times it's really handy.

In fact I used it last night when we visited a Ronald McDonald's House. Wow, that was fun. It's like a mini-Disneyland!
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.0 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Rock

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2017, 05:28:13 PM »
Well. I suppose I should start with what commands Shadow knows.  Pass (to walk by something or ignore), Yes, No, Come (instead of Heel), Hold (stop to wait for traffic or other reason), Stay (Used when I leave the home for several hours), Drop, Touch (put his nose in my open palm), Sit, Sing (hit and miss, but learning to yodel on command), Off, Quiet (stop barking) and Stop (to end play).  No problem with him focusing on me.  I only have to say, "Shadow" to have him look straight into my eyes, treat or not.

I don't really want to teach tricks.  Just simple useful commands to make life easier for us both.

I would like him to learn Paw (for shake), Down (for lay down) and Stand (for standing on all 4 while grooming or whatever), Up (to stand on hind legs, very low priority).

I try to keep all commands to single syllable words.

Otherwise, his training has been mostly behavior based.  Leash walking, greeting people, table manners (no begging), meeting other dogs, off leash recall, being calm in public places among many people and noise.

Last night, we had a little progress on Down.  I had treat in hand, gave the Sit command, allowed to smell, then lowered hand to floor saying "Down".  Shadow remained sitting, but he stretched his neck and bent his front knees, chin nearly on floor.  Just wouldn't lay down.  So, I gave the reward with a praise of "Good Down".  Tonight, I will do the same, but use my free hand to place downward pressure on his shoulders.   Hopefully, he will lay.
Shadow, male Salt & Pepper (mostly Pepper) Miniature Schnauzer, born May 3, 2016

Offline Peter Christensen

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2017, 05:43:53 PM »
Down is easy. Just put the treat in front of his nose and move it forward and down and say down.

Table manners? Just NEVER give anything from the table, nor let anyone else do it.

Meeting other dogs is simple to explain. When you see another dog and your dog expresses an interest, the instant he pulls or makes any noise or otherwise reacts poorly, IMMEDIATELY say Oops! and turn and go the other way 10 yards. Stop, ask if he'd like to see the doggie, and try again. Repeat as necessary. It might take a day or month to get it down, but never break the rule... misbehave and you don't get to meet the other dog.

http://www.myschnauzer.net/forums/index.php?topic=4159.0
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.0 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Rock

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2017, 05:32:58 PM »
Well...the little 6 kg blockhead is not picking up on the "Down" command to lay down.

This is the process being used.
Treat in hand. Just a small bit of chicken or egg from his normal meal.
"Sit."
I get down on one knee holding the treat so he can smell.
Give the "Down" command while lowering the treat to the floor and forward a little.
Shadow's nose does follow the treat.....nose down, head low, front knees bent.......then when he cant quite reach the treat.....he stands up.

I've tried placing my free hand on his shoulders to apply a little pressure to encourage the "Down", but he stands......  I can't lower my hand because I'm against the floor.


Any tips for this dumb owner with a stubborn Schnauzer????  BTW,  Shadow is 13 months old.

Hmmmm......I just got an idea.  Maybe try this with him on the sofa.  Then he will be blocked from standing and moving forward, plus I could lower my hand below his level.   Whatcha think???

Shadow, male Salt & Pepper (mostly Pepper) Miniature Schnauzer, born May 3, 2016

Offline Peter Christensen

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2017, 05:40:58 PM »
I'm glad you identified who is the dumb one.

Ha!

Seriously, I  can get my dogs to pick stuff up amazingly quickly when they are excited doing tricks for treats. So it feels like you are playing with them.

For example, you might make a FUN game of doing sit over and over again. With treats and most importantly excited accolades. Then, at the right moment, try for the down.

Let me know about the couch idea. The problem you can run into with something like that is it will only work on a couch.

Ha again!

P.S.

I'm going out to my garage now to work with a 100 lb St. Bernard and a 155 lb Newfoundland! Try those on your couch!
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.0 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Rock

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2017, 06:01:55 PM »
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm afraid of.....he'll only lay down with the "Down" command if he is on the sofa.

I hope once he gets the idea of "Down", we can move to the floor. 

I'll try tonight.......

No way on the St. Barnyard and NewLand.  They're much too big for me and their sidewalk mountains need a front end loader for clean up.
Shadow, male Salt & Pepper (mostly Pepper) Miniature Schnauzer, born May 3, 2016

Offline Rock

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 08:09:31 PM »
Still trying to get the "Down" command........

Shadow will sit, I allow chicken nugget to smell at nose level, lower my hand with the "Down" command......he leans forward in the sitting position stretches as far as he can......then stands up.   :headbanger:

I've done this with him on the sofa and lowering my hand below the cushion level.....he stands then jumps off the sofa.  Now, we try from the floor.

I've done this with him on the table and lowering my hand below the table top.....he stands then jumps off the table.  Now, we try from the floor.

The odd thing is.....I can be sitting on the sofa.  Call Shadow up to sit next to me....I pat the sofa 2X with my hand and he lays down on the spot I patted.  All non-verbal.


Maybe this is a command that he can't learn.....or I can't teach.....

Anyone else have trouble getting a command to sink into these schnauzer heads?
Shadow, male Salt & Pepper (mostly Pepper) Miniature Schnauzer, born May 3, 2016

Offline Peter Christensen

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 08:38:39 PM »
Try associating the down cue with lying down every time you see him do it.
Mukaluka Dirtypaws, male black Miniature Schnauzer, 11/09/07, 15-1/8", 17.0 lb (goal) [medical]
Pukalu, male S&P Miniature Schnauzer, 03/27/10, 15", 15.5 lb (goal) [medical]
Also: About Peter ~ Our Therapy Dog Work ~ Our Tricks Video ~ Muka's Scrapbook

Offline Carla

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 09:51:38 PM »
We've done
-sit
-down
-crawl (from the down position we move the treat, may need to keep them down while they crawl at first)
-up
-spin
-leave it (treat on floor or nose, wait for cue "ok"
-speak (they bark or just growl/rumble)
-pray (arm out, Barney puts his paws on arm, the tucks his head down between his paws)
-come
-stay

I have videos of their tricks. I'll post sometime tomorrow
Barney, male B&S Miniature Schnauzer, born September 15, 2013
Baxter, male black Miniature Schnauzer, born September 13, 2016

Offline Rock

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2017, 05:32:36 AM »
Peter....thanks.  Once again, the obvious hasn't dawned on me.

Carla.  I appreciate the list of skills, but I just want Shadow to follow good behavior commands.  His only "trick" is when I give the command "Sing".  He will do his bark/howl/yodel/growl/grumble sound.

His command list is follows:
sit
stay
come
hold
drop
pass
out
off
quiet
stop
Whistle (2X tweet) for off-leash recall
touch
double finger snap

His best response is when he wants to meet someone.  He will sit and look at the person, then look at me.  I ask the person if they want to meet Shadow, if they say Yes, then I help them meet properly.  If the person says No, then I snap my fingers and he comes to me.  This is beginning to shift with people he knows. He sits in front of them, tail wagging, wanting a pet.  When he gets the pet, then he is satisfied and goes about being a dog.
Shadow, male Salt & Pepper (mostly Pepper) Miniature Schnauzer, born May 3, 2016

Offline Karen Brittan

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2017, 09:04:34 AM »
Here "down" means "get off", ie. "four on the floor", while "drop" means "HIT THE DECK!".

I teach the drop command in stages. First, I am sitting on the floor with the dog next to my side. As I give the DROP command, I put my arm around him and grasp him by his front legs as I lift them and then put them down on the floor. "Goooood drop." I repeat several times.

Second stage: With the dog sitting at my left side. I lure the dog into a down position using food (I train using the dog's daily food ration of kibble). I may (or may not) have my left hand on his shoulders to push down slightly as I lure him down.

Third stage: The dog is sitting in front of me, and as I give the DROP command, I lure him down with a treat.

As this evolves into the "drop on recall" obedience exercise, I will then stand in front of the dog as I give the DROP command (no luring). As soon as he drops, I reward with the treat. I will gradually move further away from the dog as I give the drop command. Return to treat, then resume position in front of dog before I call him to front. Next, I would be a short distance away from the dog and, as I call him to me, I DROP him in front of me and treat.

Final stage would be leaving the dog on a sit command, moving a distance away from him, calling him to me, giving the DROP command at some point as he comes toward me,  calling him to me again, and then rewarding as he sits in front of me. (At first I may go out to treat him on the drop and then resume my initial position as I call him to me again...)

If the dog starts to anticipate the DROP command, I turn and run a short distance away before turning and facing the dog again. The goal is to keep the dog's attention and anticipating the next command.
Britmor Miniature Schnauzers
http://britmorschnauzers.com
Minnesota, USA
 
       Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
 Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
  But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
                           -Author Unknown-


Offline Rock

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Re: Trying to train new skills
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2017, 06:01:21 PM »
For me...the command "Drop" is to release the prize nugget in his mouth.  Generally, this is some nasty bit of stuff he found on our walks.

"Off" is 4 paws on the floor.

"Down" is to lay down.
Shadow, male Salt & Pepper (mostly Pepper) Miniature Schnauzer, born May 3, 2016